Builder Content

[Bruce Lehmann]

With the advent of all these new virtual reality platforms coming up there is an issue I feel needs to be addressed. That is, creator content and its use and protection. In example, when one of the new VRML/X3d based platforms started, I know of at least 2 creators that found out that their content was being used only by trying out the program and then discovering that it (both worlds and avatars) was there. There was no acknowledgement or credit given to the artist. The fact that when the Blaxxun development server was/is up and running and these worlds were listed might give the appearance that this is free content, it is NOT. I manage 5 weekly newspapers and one of the problems I constantly run across is Junior Editors wanting to pull down a great picture from the internet or even their e-mail and print it in their papers. The standing rule is, if they cannot show me a disclaimer on the site or CLEAR permission/releases to use this content, it is a no-go. The internet tends to give a lot of people the impression that it is a free-for-all when it comes to content.
Another point is that content creators need to read carefully when submitting their creations to these places. In some cases, you are literally giving your creations away to the companies.
It doesn’t take that much more time or effort to at least, on the companies’ ends, to give to the creators the credit that they are due. Some of the work available is pure art and should be treated as such. If it was easy to do everyone would be doing it. Including the platform providers. On the other end, if we, as builders and creators, see that content is being used we should let the users know that they need permission or at the least credit the creator.
In my personal case, I have implemented this in the form of not linking any worlds but my own. I had some worlds like the Abbey and the Waterpark on the main page of this site. I have now taken these down and either leave to the creator to link the worlds themselves or request/allow me to do it.
I am not taking shots at these new platforms. I am excited about the idea that some of these are using the technology that most of us like to build in. I merely want to make sure that we as creators are not abused and short changed in the process of introducing these new ideas. Without quality content, there is no 3D web in my opinion. You can provide the way to get there, but it is no good without great places to go.
I would love to see other views and possibly some ideas on how to protect what we create.
I would HATE to see good builders pulling their work off the internet in order to protect it. That would be a loss for everyone who value this virtual environment.

[alain]

I see that they still have 18 pages with worlds

http://search.exitreality.com/main.php?g2_itemId=72&g2_page=1

what the hell ?

[thyme]

I think making authors known is good if it does not hold back VRML.
When I manually made my links list (which was a huge amount of work and never up to date) I put in the author's name if I knew but I still added the link when I did not know who made the world.
It is legal to add a link without specifying the author. I never had complaints for this practice.
Some of the VRML links given to me which were set up for blaxxun multi user mode were not by the authors.
I think it would be a backward step if people had to ask before adding a link for multi user mode.
Why are we discriminating against multi user mode browsing?
I think it would-be very sad to hold back vrml/x3d's chances of success by enforcing restrictions that are not used for other file types.
When you upload content to the net you give permission to search engines by default. Blocking it is an option.
This is how the internet works.

[Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona]

I'm a bit tired of saying this, and I think we all should just give up with this conversations about ExitReality.
Just do something or let it go and wait to see if when they exit the beta this is fixed.

I think that the positions stated here and other places are rather reasonable, just saying "please recognize my ownership and authoring", and not "delete it now, you &%##!!!"

Thyme, this is not how internet works. The default license for everything is copyright, and not WTFPL ( http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/ )

Copyright means "ask me before use, and I will tell you what I want in return".

People are kind enough when asking to treat their copyrighted content as it was Creative Commons. Creative Commons says "Use it but say I'm the author".

If you don't want anything, you can use a custom license or say "do what the f... you like" and use the WTFPL :)

This is the same for 3D as for 2D or applications. For example, Seamless uses the MIT license, not the WTFPL. One can't do what the #~$% I like with it.

Licenses do exist.

Every time I had a copying problem, they always argued thinks like "this is how Internet is" or "you don't want to share"... but you are sharing since the moment that you put a content to view, read or explore for free.
And most of that copiers get money and visits that acknowledge them as authors (false authors) of the content you do. Some even get contracts and big money. So they don't copy or use the content of others in good faith or "for sharing".

The differences between a search engine and a 3D catalog are obvious and have been explained. If one could add any of those VRML files with something different of ER, we may consider it is a real Search Engine. But as you can see, the wrl are preceded of a string that makes them open with ER. Google doesn't makes you open all in, lets say, MS Word.

Having said this all, if you, Thyme keep thinking this way, I cannot convince you. Some people see things this way, but in my humble opinion, it's wrong and dangerous.

I hope this is fixed. People are being very kind to ER, and ER says they will.

thyme said:

I think making authors known is good if it does not hold back VRML.
When I manually made my links list (which was a huge amount of work and never up to date) I put in the author's name if I knew but I still added the link when I did not know who made the world.
It is legal to add a link without specifying the author. I never had complaints for this practice.
Some of the VRML links given to me which were set up for blaxxun multi user mode were not by the authors.
I think it would be a backward step if people had to ask before adding a link for multi user mode.
Why are we discriminating against multi user mode browsing?
I think it would-be very sad to hold back vrml/x3d's chances of success by enforcing restrictions that are not used for other file types.
When you upload content to the net you give permission to search engines by default. Blocking it is an option.
This is how the internet works.

[Taranis]

Ok, Thyme, I never saw any advertising on your links page. That's quite a difference. Maybe you do money with your work ( and I hope so, I always wonder if you just eat oranges... and fried cockatoes :) ) but you don't make money OUT OF the use of others people work. You don't say "seamless 3d is used to make all the work you can see on the links".
Also , you know that a 3d world is much more work than any others files that are commonly copied and stolen on the web, not to say it is an artistic vision of the author (something that ha "no" value basically, mean high value uh!).

BTW, it's amazing how we've been blind : ER is really the present future of Blaxxun. Don't know how, don't know why, but the logo tells it all, the "plaza" name also, and the fact that ER is up at the same time Blaxxun is not responding...
What happened ? Dunno, plugin code just flied and get better during his trip around the planet. That's my point of view for the moment. But it seems that ER has been stressed up by the coming of Vivaty and Lively and so many others : so they decided probably to make it public in order to "be there".
That's ok, but they did the big mistake not to hear content creators : Jordi already mailed them and discussed with them about authors' concerns when in beta. They did not care.
At Blaxxun time, there was quite a balance : a public free server "given" to authors/ many examples from content creators to be used by Blaxxun as a showcase.
Right now it changed : all urls gathered from years by ER are used with NO exchange at all. Not to say they clearly intend to make money , and clearly are not gonna give any to creators.

We authors and content creators are not gonna be ER's free foil.
Something has changed.

Oh btw, read carefully this secret message dated back to 2005... And be smart, follow links and use wayback machine. This will probably interests many here. ( take the time there's a java picture to load )

http://www.phaenomen.de/englisch/network/orbits.html

Cheers !





thyme said:

I think making authors known is good if it does not hold back VRML.
When I manually made my links list (which was a huge amount of work and never up to date) I put in the author's name if I knew but I still added the link when I did not know who made the world.
It is legal to add a link without specifying the author. I never had complaints for this practice.
Some of the VRML links given to me which were set up for blaxxun multi user mode were not by the authors.
I think it would be a backward step if people had to ask before adding a link for multi user mode.
Why are we discriminating against multi user mode browsing?
I think it would-be very sad to hold back vrml/x3d's chances of success by enforcing restrictions that are not used for other file types.
When you upload content to the net you give permission to search engines by default. Blocking it is an option.
This is how the internet works.

[Doctor]

Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona said:

I'm a bit tired of saying this, and I think we all should just give up with this conversations about ExitReality.
Just do something or let it go and wait to see if when they exit the beta this is fixed.

I think that the positions stated here and other places are rather reasonable, just saying "please recognize my ownership and authoring", and not "delete it now, you &%##!!!"

Thyme, this is not how internet works. The default license for everything is copyright, and not WTFPL ( http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/ )

Copyright means "ask me before use, and I will tell you what I want in return".

People are kind enough when asking to treat their copyrighted content as it was Creative Commons. Creative Commons says "Use it but say I'm the author".

If you don't want anything, you can use a custom license or say "do what the f... you like" and use the WTFPL :)

This is the same for 3D as for 2D or applications. For example, Seamless uses the MIT license, not the WTFPL. One can't do what the #~$% I like with it.

Licenses do exist.

Every time I had a copying problem, they always argued thinks like "this is how Internet is" or "you don't want to share"... but you are sharing since the moment that you put a content to view, read or explore for free.
And most of that copiers get money and visits that acknowledge them as authors (false authors) of the content you do. Some even get contracts and big money. So they don't copy or use the content of others in good faith or "for sharing".

The differences between a search engine and a 3D catalog are obvious and have been explained. If one could add any of those VRML files with something different of ER, we may consider it is a real Search Engine. But as you can see, the wrl are preceded of a string that makes them open with ER. Google doesn't makes you open all in, lets say, MS Word.

Having said this all, if you, Thyme keep thinking this way, I cannot convince you. Some people see things this way, but in my humble opinion, it's wrong and dangerous.

I hope this is fixed. People are being very kind to ER, and ER says they will.

thyme said:

I think making authors known is good if it does not hold back VRML.
When I manually made my links list (which was a huge amount of work and never up to date) I put in the author's name if I knew but I still added the link when I did not know who made the world.
It is legal to add a link without specifying the author. I never had complaints for this practice.
Some of the VRML links given to me which were set up for blaxxun multi user mode were not by the authors.
I think it would be a backward step if people had to ask before adding a link for multi user mode.
Why are we discriminating against multi user mode browsing?
I think it would-be very sad to hold back vrml/x3d's chances of success by enforcing restrictions that are not used for other file types.
When you upload content to the net you give permission to search engines by default. Blocking it is an option.
This is how the internet works.

Perhaps one needs to make a distinction between simply adding a hyperlink to a web page that directs the user to the original author's web page and content, versus obscuring to whom that content belongs or actually copying the content without permission. I am not certain, but it seems to

[Doctor]

I just spent the last 45 minutes composing a post to this forum and when I posted it most of my work was cut off.
There was no way after that for me to recover what I had composed.
This is a VERY, VERY ANNOYING problem with this forum site.
Why did the editor not stop me from entering text if I had crossed the allowed character limit?

[alain]

I am not only "tired" with all that , but sad , too .
If all that turns into polemics between vrml lovers , it will be a great pain .
ER proved that we were unable to "act together" ,
and now all will be turn in sad exchanges .So they win .
Better to stop debates which waste our time and to ..begin to collect money to buy Blaxxun :(

[thyme]

Giving permission to search engines does not remove your copyright over your content.
Search engines having permission by default has nothing to do with what license you use for your content.

If I added advertisements to my links page it would not become illegal.

[Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona]

Well, I'm with Alain and I agree with all that he says.

Please moderate your language, don't make direct references to anyone.

After all, we all know each other and are friends, so don't turn this in a nasty discussion.

I say it again: we have talked enough. Do something or do nothing and just wait. But don't end with an angry discussion between friends.

"Words don't lift walls" (Plutarc)

[Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona]

Thyme is not the origin of this problem, he just expresses opinions, that can be wrong or right, in use of his sacred freedom.
Just let us all stick to the problem itself.

[Bruce Lehmann]

Doctor said:

I just spent the last 45 minutes composing a post to this forum and when I posted it most of my work was cut off.
There was no way after that for me to recover what I had composed.
This is a VERY, VERY ANNOYING problem with this forum site.
Why did the editor not stop me from entering text if I had crossed the allowed character limit?

Not sure why that is happening. There are alot of long posts on this site.

[Bruce Lehmann]

Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona said:

Thyme is not the origin of this problem, he just expresses opinions, that can be wrong or right, in use of his sacred freedom.
Just let us all stick to the problem itself.

I am afraid that bickering will dilute the reason this discussion started. Either you care or don't whether your content is used without permission. It does not make anyone "right" or "wrong", it just is. I personally don't care in most cases as long as the user does not take credit for the work ( I am secretly flattered that they WANT to use it, lol), but I also understand that there are some that do. And if they do, they have a right to act on their convictions. It, again, doesn't make them right or wrong. Business though, that use the content, are COMPLETELY wrong if they do not 1: Have permission. 2: Have been asked to remove it and don't. 3: re-name the content (giving it the appearance that it is theirs). Merely finding with a search engine is one thing. Mis-using it under these parameters is quite another. Example: A link to anothers world is not the issue, a link to another's world while representing it as your own is.