Let's make Google adopt VRML

[Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona]

Please read:

http://news.hiperia3d.com/2009/04/another-standard-for-web-3d-googl...

I have submitted the suggestion to make O3D adopt VRML or X3D in classical vrml encoding. The option is getting votes.

PLEASE GO THERE AND VOTE! Let's make VRML and X3D be supported by O3D!

Just login in Google account and go to:

http://moderator.appspot.com/#16/e=41eb1

And vote the option:

"Create support for VRML or X3D in classical VRML syntax because it's an already existing standard for web3D and it's easy for everyone"

[Doctor]

Steve said:

"I thought this whole discussion thread was about convincing software development teams (in this case Google's O3D) that adopting X3D as the primary content format would be a good option compared with the alternative formats, and not a discussion about artists having to learn hand coding because their favorite authoring tool does not yet export x3d nor x3dv."

Actually check the title of this thread again. it reads "Let's make Google adopt VRML". This topic was started with both in mind but did not stipulate that this was about X3D alone. Now i understand that X3D is part of this discussion and I am not saying that it doesn't have a place. But Please understand there is a big division amongst the vrml x3d community. ALOT of people still favor VRML and it obvious with poles and overall popularity.

That being said I think this is a good place to leave this piece of the discussion.

"I have a question for anyone reading this discussion: If you have reservations about X3D then what 3D Web content format would you propose would be better for Google's O3D project to adopt, and why?"

Google sort of walks it's own walk. I personally don't believe they should be trying to support their own standard for the web but that is not within our control. The thing that IS in our control is how popular our own choices are for the web. To create compelling worlds and content that attracts others to the language and to initiate them to this style is our charge. If we do whatever we can do about this then maybe people will come back. The Biggest problem is that everyone has their own idea of what the standard should be and as long as thier are divisions this battle will rage. I would think that the most unified community will probably win in the end.

My apologies.
What I meant to say was "I thought this whole discussion thread was about convincing software development teams (in this case Google's O3D) that adopting X3D or VRML97 as the primary content format would be a good option compared with the alternative formats, and not a discussion about artists having to learn hand coding because their favorite authoring tool does not yet export x3d nor x3dv.".

If I understand your position correctly (perhaps I don't), then you are proposing that the creation of slick content via hand coding (presumably because effective authoring tools do not exist) is what is needed to convince software developers to adopt the 3D content format. In other words, the lack of cool examples using X3D is the primary reason why Google-O3D and other development teams will likely not adopt VRML97 nor X3D.
Additionally (again, if I am interpreting you correctly) the suggestion is that X3D is a much harder format in which to hand code than VRML97, primarily because X3D has a second, non-VRML-like, optional encoding that looks like XML tag soup.

On the other hand, I am suggesting the opposite of the above stated view (which may or may not be yours). I believe that software developers will choose a 3D format based on its features, compatibility, licence and ease of implementation, rather than be convinced by pre-existing eye candy in the 3D format under consideration.
Eye candy will appear only after the 3D content format has been adopted by at least one major software vendor that can spend lots of money on advertisement and can attract users based on the company name & reputation alone. For instance, why is there so much content in the Google Sketchup format or any other proprietary format? Did the format and exceptional content in that format exist (hand coded, no doubt) prior to the software developers adopting that format? Or did the developers adopt (in many cases design) that format for their authoring tools and see the exceptional content come later?
As for VRML97 versus X3D, I am defending the x3dv encoding as being essentially version 3.0 of VRML, and so (in my opinion) anyone promoting VRML 2.0 (i.e. VRML97) should seriously consider promoting the newest version of VRML instead (i.e. X3D in its VRML encoding). The XML encoding of X3D is something that hand coders need never have to worry about, so the "tag soup" argument seems to me to be irrelevant.

Perhaps I am just misinterpreting where this discussion is going --- in that case, my apologies.
I sometimes start rambling. :)

Thank you Hiperia3D for the links to the X3D exporters for Maya and 3DS Max. Has anyone tried out one of these exporters and examined whether it has partial or full X3D node support?

[Doctor]

Steve said:

... there is a big division amongst the vrml x3d community. ALOT of people still favor VRML and it obvious with poles and overall popularity.
That being said I think this is a good place to leave this piece of the discussion.

Why leave this part of the discussion? There might be some misconceptions about X3D and "tag soup" that could be discussed here.
I personally only still work in VRML97 due to compatibility with most people's browser plug-ins.
If most people used a browser plug-in or stand alone viewer that supported all (or most of) the X3D nodes then I would start working in x3dv format immediately, rather than the VRML97 format.
Ummm ... I guess an X3Dv version of VRMLpad would also be nice (X3DVpad?) :)

Should we start a new discussion thread about "VRML97 versus X3D"?
Would anyone participate in such a discussion?

[Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona]

Yes I think that many would participate, but better make the thread in a positive way, what about "Why aren't you using X3D and still write VRML?", or something that may give some light.

I think the lack of applications is one of the problems. But 's let's discuss it in another thread.

I am packaging my modules into an editor on the Netbeans platform that will be a sort of X3DVPad, and it will be opensource. Not sure of the name of the application, though. I hope you have not patented that LOL!

There's also X3D-Edit, that let you make X3D files in XML syntax without fighting with the tags. Unfortunately, I am still reading the sources because for some reason, my modules don't work well inside it.

[Steve]

"Thank you Hiperia3D for the links to the X3D exporters for Maya and 3DS Max. Has anyone tried out one of these exporters and examined whether it has partial or full X3D node support?"

Yes Jordi, thank you for the links. I visited these links and discovered that the 3ds max exporters are both for older versions of Max. One of them much older as in version 3 and 4. Not sure if they work in anything newer than that. I know that Bitmanagement has an exporter for max too which is probably a l;ittle more updated but I am sure they charge a handsome price in order to use it.

Would be awesome if there was an open-source, VRML97 to X3DV converter on the web that was available for free so that people could at least experiment with it. Without alot of knowledge of the x3d spec I can tell you I wouldn't want to put in the hours upon hours trying to fix code that didnt translate properly.

...and yes Doctor. A new version of vrmlPad would be DEFinately a needed commodity. :P

[Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona]

There are some for conversion from VRML to X3D, and some tools can import vrml and then export to x3dv, like x3d-edit (that is free).

I am working on a module for conversion from VRML to X3DV, but it is not yet finished.

[Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona]

https://sourceforge.net/projects/x3dvpad/

[Steve]

Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona said:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/x3dvpad/

I get this error when trying to visit this link.

Permission Denied:
Access to this page is restricted (either to project members or to project administrators) and you do not meet the requirements to access this page. Please contact the administrator of this project for further assistance.


I created an account first then revisited this link so not sure what the problem is. perhaps because it a Directory rather than an html page?

[fabricator]

Steve said:

I get this error when trying to visit this link.

Permission Denied:
Access to this page is restricted (either to project members or to project administrators) and you do not meet the requirements to access this page. Please contact the administrator of this project for further assistance.


I created an account first then revisited this link so not sure what the problem is. perhaps because it a Directory rather than an html page?

What a joke, the error page doesn't even mention who the project administrator is. Sourceforge fails at usability as usual I see.

[Hiperia3D - Jordi R Cardona]

The project is still pending approval, I think that's the reason

[Doctor]

Some conversion tools listed on the Web3D Consortium site can be found at the following link:

http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dResources.html#Convers...

Xj3D is an example of a set of open source tools that include conversion utilities between *.wrl, *.x3dv and *.x3d files.

X3D-Edit is apparently also open source.
I'll have to install and test out that program to see if it is like a VRMLpad for the X3Dv format.

[Steve]

Doctor said:

Some conversion tools listed on the Web3D Consortium site can be found at the following link:

http://www.web3d.org/x3d/content/examples/X3dResources.html#Convers...

Xj3D is an example of a set of open source tools that include conversion utilities between *.wrl, *.x3dv and *.x3d files.

X3D-Edit is apparently also open source.
I'll have to install and test out that program to see if it is like a VRMLpad for the X3Dv format.

Someone ought to press the consortium to update their tools a bit. lol.

xj3d hasn't been updated since'06: Download the current release: 1.0 (16 April 2006)
it appears that the consortium hasn't moved this project forward in over 3 years.

I installed x3d_edit and tried it for awhile but it doesn't function exactly the way it should however. I was able to convert a .wrl to the tag soup version in .x3d format but exporting to x3dv is problematic at best. So far i havent been able to export to this type. There IS an option for exporting to this but it doesn't function correctly.
Maybe I am not using it right but i tried several different option in the export dialogue and wasnt able to export the .wrl or the .x3d i made to .x3dv. When i choose the export to classic vrml it brings up a small window and asks to select which file to export and the list is empty. perhaps this is a directory problem but it doesnt let me use the file that is currently in the editor.

As far as it being like VRMLPad it has a long way to go im afraid. Granted I have only worked with it a bit but seems to be notepad like in the UI. Many things would have to be added by hand. I couldn't find a date for this release(3.2) but the naval academy is housing the download.

Perhaps if the project Jordi mentioned (3dvpad) gets off the ground maybe we will see something a little more suited for editing. I can't help but still feel the same way after this experience. There just isn't very good resources or support for x3d at this time. Converting entire worlds, files and proto structures to x3d would be a major pain IMO and not a task i would look forward to.

Does anyone know someone involved with the consortium that could give us an update to any progress being made with this?

[Steve]

side note...

I did see interesting application called Meshlab.

They just released a new version may 25, 2009. It is both open source and free to download. I havent installed it yet but may give it a try and see what it can do.

the only drawback maybe lack of export for x3dv syntax. It says it will import x3d, x3dv or wrl but only will export x3d and wrl.

...at least they are up to date ;)